Politics and Culture

Every lawbreaker should be charged.
I didn't know it was illegal to fly a flag above the American flag. Not knowing of a law that is clarly published and available to anyone who cares to read is no excuse for not obeying such law. The owner of the bar should be ticketed and fined.
That maniac with the knife...
He should be charged with armed robbery. He took a KNIFE and went on to public property and STOLE private property, while THREATENING everyone around. I'm sure there are a few more felonies in there, you or I would be charged with if one of us were to waltz into Wallmart and do the same thing. There is no room under the law for breaking it and threatening innocent bystanders, just because you believe doing so is patriotic.
Thank you for posting this, as I had not heard of it.

When you take the time to learn all you have to do to open a business, then perhaps a little time learning about the flag of your adopted country would be a good thing. If you enjoy the benefits of this country, learn the history. The man who removed this flag may or may not be a vet, I do not know. But if indeed he is a vet, he has fought for this country and knows the value of the flag of his country. If we persist in dumbing down the population as to the meaning and respect this symbol deserves, then perhaps it would be best for those who think this was out of control, to visit another country and place THEIR flag subsurvant to ours and see the HELL that is made then. My husband, brothers, father and 7 uncles have fought for the right to fly the flag proudly. I suggest that we begin teaching our children and grandchildren flag ettiquete. After all, isn't that little piece of cloth, that represents what hundreds of thousands of lives have been given for, deserving of a place of honor in its own country?

Janice,

Concerning the flag, I totaly agree with you.
But also, like I said, everyone should be charged. Vet or not, he does not have the right to commit armed robbery. No mattet how patriotic he feels, it does NOT give him the right to wave a knife, demand a fight, and steal. Thats wrong. He should be charged, and the charges could be dropped for timed served, but nonetheless he should face the consequences of his actions.

Janice,

Concerning the flag, I totaly agree with you.
But also, like I said, everyone should be charged. Vet or not, he does not have the right to commit armed robbery. No mattet how patriotic he feels, it does NOT give him the right to wave a knife, demand a fight, and steal. Thats wrong. He should be charged, and the charges could be dropped for timed served, but nonetheless he should face the consequences of his actions.

Chris

He said "they need to be men and they need to fight us." I would like to share something with those of you who may or may not have encountered the same type of attitude that was displayed by this business owner. To pre-qualify my response I am a US Army veteran and I have had a family member who served in this country's military during every major US conflict in the last 120 years.
I was stationed at Ft. Bliss several years back. This is in the middle of ElPaso TX where there is about an 80% hispanic population. I was astounded that my wife could not find a job unless she was bi-lingual. I was also astounded by some of the attitudes of employees and business owners whose business establishments I entered. On one occasion I had a waitress become hysterical with a hostess who tried to seat us in her area. I do not speak Spanish, but I can tell you that I had the distinct and overwhelming impression that it had to do with the fact that we were white. We left this national chain without being seated. It was clear that we were not welcome.
I believe that the veteran who cut the flag down did so because he WAS indeed a veteran and felt passionately (as many veterans do) about what our flag stands for. Like many other veterans and other tax payers, is tired of Mexican immigrants (many illegal) essentially invading our country and disrespecting our traditions and values and forcing Mexican traditions and values in a country where they have not been earned with the blood of countless generations of veterans. The first fighting comment he made seemed to be directed at Mexico. Probably because he feels his country is being invaded without a single shot being fired.
I realize that many large influxes of immigrants have come into this country and many came illegaly. All of these cultures have "melted" in. Perhaps my grandfather's generation felt the same about the Irish, the Polish, the Italians and the Germans who immigrated here in massive numbers. I do not know that any of them refused to learn the language. They called themselves "Americans" not German-Americans or the like.
If you have a problem with this man's reaction I suggest serving in the US military and watching a few of your friends being wrapped in that flag. Then go and live in a region near the Mexican border where you get the distinct impression that you're not welcome and do not deserve to be there.

I think legal residents should be able to act however they wish- as long as we don't have to pay for it and they're otherwise responsible. I encourage my kids to assimilate, but I also think it's cool that they have some sense of their roots. I definitely don't want them angry at other American GROUPS or resentful of anything. If somebody wants to preserve their culture, fine. They can still be good people.

Here's the real problem:

People will assimilate for a compelling reason. If Americans aren't proud of their country, why would you expect others to be? If Americans don't care about enforcing the law, why would you be surprised that people break it?

Just be a good example and, trust me, everybody will be close enough to avoid conflict and that means communicating in English, etc. Mexicans don't wish to "take over" parts of the U.S. What for? To do what? They're the same religion, mostly.

So, don't force it on people. Eventually, they'll go with what's better. Free market.

Walt,

I will NEVER join the U.S. Armed forces. Nevertheless, you are no more American than me.
I don't care if EVERYONE in you family served over the last 120 years.
My earlier statements reguarding law breaking still stands.
As for assimilation. Don't hold your breath. From what I can can see, all the states in the South Western US have SPANISH names. So do most of the cities, counties, capitols, beaches, food, architectue and many, many, many other examples that are far too numerous to list here. All of this culture was here, loooooong before you, me, or the United States, ever was. My guess is, they will always be here. Perhaps that is assimilation. Maybe it is foolish to think that an entire culture and region can be assimilated without changing that assimilated into.
Reguardless, that maniac with the knife broke the law and commited at least one FELONY. He should pay the price.


Proud American,
Chris de Leon

"So, don't force it on people. Eventually, they'll go with what's better. Free market." - nguirado

I agree with you totally. However I feel that the the melting pot (regardless of race creed gender religion etc) is having the Mexican heritage forced upon them by people who are entering this country under predominantly illegal pretenses. This flag incident is simply a symbol of a bigger problem. I want people here of other backgrounds. I want to see the best bits and pieces of every culture added to this country's melting pot. I think that's what makes us great. The point is this group (probably the minority) refuses to "melt in."

Chris,
'If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that yelps is the one you hit.'
My military service and that of my family was only used to state my understanding of what I believe to be the veteran's point of view. I never said I was more American than anyone. Thoose are your words.
With regard to the law and punishment, the probability is great that had the police showed up regarding the illegality and offensive nature of the flag's display nothing would have been done. No ticket, no nothing. Had he been arrested without a green card, same deal. Catch and release.
If he thinks Mexico is that great, why is he here?
The only thing that vet owes anyone is a new piece of rope.
Make no mistake. I totally understand people wanting to jump over a ditch to get to the greatest country on earth. I would do it too. The difference is that I would melt in.
No one should forget his roots, but that doesn't mean that I should have to "press 1 for English" to accomodate them.

I guess we will never see eye to eye, as i believe in the RULE OF LAW.
You don't get to threaten people with a weapon, just because you feel it is patriotic.
As for military service, it's totaly irrelevant to this incident. Serving in our military does not make one above the law, no matter the circumstance.
The fact the police might have done nothing considering the flagrant violation of flying and American flag below the Mexican flag, makes no difference.
As for what he 'owes', well he took a flag that was not his. He stole it.
He also did it while threatening with a knife. I feel bad for him. I really do. But that doesn't make what he did legal. Nothing you say makes it legal either.

Chris

If a drug dealer is caught with a kilo of coke while driving in his car, will his car not be seized? The same should be true of the flag. He used the flag to break the law. He should be stripped of it both because he broke the law and because he clearly has no comprehension of it's symbolic value. Any citizen with or without a badge has a civic duty to defend this country, it's laws and it's national symbols.
I do not agree with you that this bearded fellow broke any law other than perhaps distruction of property. Which, was simply done to rectify a broken law. A cop would make no apologies about cutting a dealer's leather seats while searching for drugs.
He did not threaten anyone with the knife. He simply possessed one. He never pointed it at anyone. He never lunged at anyone or anything of the sort. He simply stated that he would be willing to fight to protect the flag of the United States of America. Clearly the owner of the business was not willing to challenge an old man to defend Mexico. :P That was a "dry" joke. Don't take it to heart.
As for your comment on the names of Western US cities, consider that any city that has a -ville suffix is of French origin. Who cares? we don't speak French, but we do owe a debt of gratitude to the French for helping us become a soverign nation.
Chris, I presume by your last name that you are of Spanish decent. Possibly Mexican. If so, it would make a lot of sense to me why you're so passionate about this topic. I do not mean any ill-will toward you or anyone else. Hopefully by my sharing where my point of view came from you can also understand why I'm so passionate about my view.
Perhaps we can agree on one thing.... To disagree. :)
I do appreciate your point of view. Thanks for the debate.

No hard feelings. We're both Americans, discussing American issues, freely.
I'm glad you did put your point out there, in your own words.

Thank you too,

Chistian

I support that vet 100%, he should not be charged, i'll bet money it will go no further than a police report, FYI, that was NOT Armed robbery, he did not threaten anyone with his knife, there was no bodily threat to the owners of that store disrespecting our country.

IF YOU DONT SUPPORT OUR COUNTRY GET THE F--K OUT

Josh man I second that motion! I just returned from my 3rd tour in Iraq and I am dam proud to have gone and served. I was a medic with USMC infantry for 3 tours and went through some crazy stuff. I support that vet 100% also and wish I could shake his hand! He is a real american. As Patton said "Americans love to fight" We are a proud nation and we got a bunch of idiots living here that forget what this country is all about. Freedom. Millions have died for it and millions more would jump at the chance to get what we have here. Everyone else is just jelous of the good ole USA. We are doing great things in Iraq I have been on the front lines all 3 years and have seen massive changes since the first days. News is a bunch of BS.

Semper Fi!
See you in the next war!
Josh

And to second what Josh said.

IF YOU DONT SUPPORT OUR COUNTRY GET THE F--K OUT

Luckily I am an American.
I'll say WHATEVER to WHOEVER I choose to ANYTIME I want to. You'll just have to deal with it, or get some therapy. That man is a criminal. Oh, I'm SURE no charges will be filed. Doesn't mean that justice is served.
By the way, if you steal something, while armed, it's ARMED ROBBERY. You don't have to threaten anyone. Despite your opinion, facts are facts, laws are laws. The fact that he's a vet and somewhat deranged MIGHT get him a little leniency, but he's still a criminal.

Chris

EVeryone keeps saying that the owner of the business flying the flags broke the law and should be punished. The courts have repeatedly struck down those laws as unconstitutional. He could not be charged with any crime. It may not be proper flag etiquette, but it isn't a crime. THat is part of being a free country, the freedom to do things everyone might not like.

ON the other hand, the guy who stole the flag DID commit a crime, and if we are a country of law, should be charged.

Freedom and laws are what is important.

Mark!
You said it, as uncomfortble as it might be. If it is a law, the owner of the buisness should be cited. If not, then he should be left alone.
That maniacle, deranged vet on the other hand, should be arrested.
ARMED ROBBERY.

Chris

The guy was showboating and skipped several steps in the escalation process. A gentlemansly talk expressing his point of view would have been the best course of action. We shouldn't encourage extemism even if we sympathize with the man.

Yes, we are all here in this great country of ours because of all those that went before us and gave their lives (and still do today). I am grateful for their sacrifice and even more grateful that our military is voluntary (because of their sacrifice).

However, the sad truth is that all too many puffy-chested Americans go around either breaking laws or seeing nothing wrong with those who do and justify it because it matches up with their idea of the way "America" should be. Our fathers died so we could all be free and protected. Not so anybody waving an American flag (or a knife) can do whatever the hell they want and ignore laws and the local police their tax dollars pay for.

Hell yes that vet has a right to be upset. I was upset at the sight of a Mexican flag flying over the red, white, and blue. But the more you keep "protecting" America by ignoring the bill or rights and American law, the weaker you make America.

And we're screwed because most of you will never understand what I'm talking about.

Interesting discussion ... lots of comments about laws etc... was just curious... does anyone know if the bar owner was a US Citizen naturalized or other? We can assume that the vet was a US Citizen? Is Reno an asylum city?

It took Guts, and he is my American hero!!! Where is the respect for this country that we live in. How you forgotten how many people have died to defend this Great Nation so people can come here to live in freedom. If they wanted to honor Mexico so much, then why would you leave your country and live here. I don't pray to Ahla, or Budda, I pray to God that more people have the pride and guts to stand up for this Country. My great grandparents came from Germany, I do not call myself a German-American... I am an American. I do not speak German, nor did my parents, and my Grandparents spoke both, but only German inside there own home, they understood that speaking German in public gave people that un-easy feeling, and in Public they spoke only English. They had respect for the people of this Great Nation. Unlike today, people have no respect for the United States of America. I would not go into mexico, start a bussiness and fly an American Flag there. What gives those people the right to do that here. Was he wrong for cutting down the American Flag? Depends on which way you look at it, he could have cut down the Mexican flag and burned it on the spot and left the American Flag flying at the top of the Flag Pole. But he had respect for those people not to do that, he was just preserving what he has fought for, and what his friends died for. I laugh at the people that called it theft!!! What are you thinking, how much sacifice does a person have to give to a Great Nation only to be insulted in the heighest form that there is. I believe that those that called this theft or thought that it was wrong should go to a V.A. hospital and visit those that have been to Iraq and have lost their legs and arms, the blinded, and the burned and tell them exactly what you believe in.

Also, he did not threaten anyone with his knife. He simply cut down the American Flag. I have the right to Bear Arms as well, in my State I can legally have a pistol or a fire arm strapped to my side, it is not illegal and I am not a maniac. And yes I can walk down the sidewalk with it strapped to my side because it is public property, it is only illegal to conceal it.

So, this message is for Chris, who wrote in earlier. I believe that we should have a 51st state just for you called Mexifornia. You can do what ever you want, and be who ever you want to be and fly what ever flag that you what. The daisy will be yellow in your perfect little world, no polution and everyone is welcome. There are no speeders and no-one breaks the law. And there is no Military, because really there are no threats. And you don't have to call yourself an American, but be proud that you are a Mexifornian. Oh yeah, and there are no maniac's yielding weapons, threatening all of man kind.

Bottom line... your an idiot!!! Time for you to wake up.


As for the guy that cut down the American Flag he is truly my American Hero.

Bob Dillinger,

I don't need a 51st state called 'MEXIfornia'. You biggot.
I live in California.
I see my dominant Mexican culture represented EVERYWHERE I go in California. Cities, streets, highways, beaches, foods, architecture, people, towns, and many, many, many examples ... to numerous to name. It always has been here. It always will be here.
You need to wake up.
As for the armed robery and theft of the American flag incident, it was what it was. Armed robery.. at least. And just because local police might not have done anything, doesn't make it right. Not too long ago, it was the 'local police' lynching and killing African Americans.
Symbolicly that window washing, drunk maniac with the knife may have been correct... It doesn't mean it was legal. I respect the rule of law. It's the cornerstone of our Democracy. No one is above the law. Not presidents, generals, congressmnes, congresswomen, psychotic knife wielding vterans or anyone else.
Deal with it.

Chris

Chris, you are part of the problem in creating resentment with statements like "I see my dominant Mexican culture represented EVERYWHERE". The Mexican culture is a mixed up melting pot of different cultures that same as the USA. The Spanish conquered the indiginous indians and actually had a larger intermixing (approx. 50%) of races than in the US. So exactly what is "your dominant culture"? Mexico didn't exist prior to the Spanish either so your culture is actually a Roman left over Latin European mixed with indiginous Central/South American indian culture. And before you start assuming I'm some kind of racist you need to stop right there since I am Finnish/Scottish/German and American Indian. Yes that's right...A mixed race americian. I have no problem with immigration but I have a problem with those that would break the laws to come here and then disrespect this country (my country). And if the USA is your country and you actually felt it was yours you would have sided with the vet. Where does your loyalties lie, with your supposedly "dominant culture" or with the United States of America. I actually like the Mexican culture but you would be wise to choose carefully or you might actually find out what the dominant culture throughout the rest of this great country actually is. My indian warrior blood urges that we should take over Mexico then quit messing around with Venezuela and take it over and get rid of the little dictator there. It must be that urge that existed before the Europeans arrived when we were all waring amoungst our various tribes. My tribe/indian nation must have had their eye on Atzlan. Hmmm........

I'm an Active Duty Soldier, and a former Active Duty Airmen. My family has also served this country since the Civil War. I find nothing wrong with what Mr. Brossard's actions. If you are going to live in this country OR any country other than your own. You should learn the proper respects or your host country. This does in clude learning the language as well as the proper customs and courtesies' of that host nation. He didn't threaten any one. I didn't see him point that knife at any one! As for privet property. Now Let me inform you I was also on a Base Honor Guard for three years. The American Flag IS NOT PRIVET PROPERTY! Nor is it public. It is considdered a liveing symbol of our country. Just the same as the Bald Eagle. There for as such it is not considdered property. If an American Flag was flown over a Mexican Flag in Mexico what do you think would happen there? From what I've heard of the Mexican authorities, I'm sure the offender would possibly be beaten and thrown in to a Mexican Prisson. I've heard those aren't exactly where you really wana be. So the restaurant got off luck, as for the fellony. I would almost bet Mr. Brossard is a Vetnam Vet. If he is and you really want to blame a VET for standing up for what he stood up for in uniform, and watched a good number of his budies come home in boxes or not at all. You need to realize there are a large number of people like us out there. We won't sit back and watch our home be dishonored by any one.
I salute Mr. Brossard for his actions.

I'm an Active Duty Soldier, and a former Active Duty Airmen. My family has also served this country since the Civil War. Like DJ my family also comes form the Native people of this land. I find nothing wrong with what Mr. Brossard's actions. If you are going to live in this country OR any country other than your own. You should learn the proper respects of your host country. This does in clude learning the language as well as the proper customs and courtesies' of that host nation. He didn't threaten any one. I didn't see him point that knife at any one! As for privet property. Now Let me inform you I was also on a Base Honor Guard for three years. The American Flag IS NOT PRIVET PROPERTY! Nor is it public. It is considdered a liveing symbol of our country. Just the same as the Bald Eagle. There for as such it is not considdered property. If an American Flag was flown over a Mexican Flag in Mexico what do you think would happen there? From what I've heard of the Mexican authorities, I'm sure the offender would possibly be beaten and thrown in to a Mexican Prisson. I've heard those aren't exactly where you really wana be. So the restaurant got off luck, as for the fellony. I would almost bet Mr. Brossard is a Vetnam Vet. If he is and you really want to blame a VET for standing up for what he stood up for in uniform, and watched a good number of his budies come home in boxes or not at all. You need to realize there are a large number of people like us out there. We won't sit back and watch our home be dishonored by any one.
I salute Mr. Brossard for his actions.

"Not knowing of a law that is clarly published and available to anyone who cares to read is no excuse for not obeying such law. The owner of the bar should be ticketed and fined."

Seince this guy seems so keen on the law, perhapse he might like to recite the punishment prescribed by law for violation of this statute?

Oh wait- there isn't one. Immagine that, codified traditions that arn't a basis for a criminal offense. It's Ah-Maze-Ing. You'll be intrested to learn that there are many of these at every level of law. ( you know, town, city, county, state, and federal. )

And what's more, for the idiots here- it would be just as wrong for him to have had it the other way around. Infact! It'd be wrong for him to fly that combination IN MEXICO! OR! IN POLAND! INFACT! FLYING ANY COMBINATION OF NATIONAL FLAGS ON THE SAME POLE IN ANY ORDER, ON ANY SOIL IS JUST AS BAD. One national flag to one pole- this is the standard for ALL so-called "civilized" nations. Which, reading the nonsense here and elsewhere about this topic, I'd be hard pressed to call America.

You don't defend the flag by sticking a knife in the law's, and the consitution's back. You carve away all the meaning from the flag till that's all you have left that way. He's no hero- at least not for this.